Curse

reaper with no name · Aug 09, 2009, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

3) Has ulterior motives for continuing to abuse Perma-SF, most likely a "get rich quick and f*** anyone who says otherwise or gets in my way" point of view

I can prove that this is the case for the majority of SF users. Watch.

Hey, SF sins! If SF is really not overpowered and hideously broken and it's okay for people to have skills like this, then you wouldn't mind supporting the implementation of the skills from this post, would you? After all, if it's really ok for you sins to have this, then it should be ok for everyone to have, right?

The best part is, some of those skills are actually less powerful than SF! Take the necro one, for example; enchantment stripping kills it. Not so of SF, since there are very very few PBAoE or touch enchantment stripping skills. The derv one can be interrupted. The paragon one can be shut down with Well of Silence. And then there's the fact that most of those skills don't prevent you from being blinded or weakened or otherwise hindered from killing things.

capashen · Aug 09, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Shadow Form needs to be restricted to "nonPerma" status.

Reasons:

1) Shadow Form is not total invulnerability, that still doesn't mean that it should be permanently maintainable, thereby completely nullifying 2 of GW's base game mechanics - Attacking and Targeted Spellcasting.

No other Elite Skill does this. Not a single one. There are Elite skills that have some of the functionality of Shadow Form and can be permanently maintained, but they do not grant immunity from the 2 most prevalent sources of incoming damage at once.

Wiki lists these 3 skills alongside Shadow Form as Action-prevention skills:

Spell Breaker
Vow of Silence
Obsidian Flesh

While they might be maintainable, they don't ignore both attacks and targeted spells, and they all have downsides. OF makes you move much slower, Vow makes you untargetable by ALL spells, even friendly or self, and Spell Breaker only prevents targeted spells, not attacks as well. Shadow Form has 2 downsides, damage output reduction, and losing all but a small fraction of your health when it ends - but since it's able to be maintained indefinitely, the health loss is negated, not to mention there are plenty of ways to deal damage even with the reduction drawback of SF.

2) The ability to be used to clear Elite areas faster than any other viable build.

They are Elite areas for a reason. They aren't supposed to be cleared in < 20 minutes on a regular basis. They aren't Elite to keep people out indefinitely - they are Elite because they require understanding of how things work, better than average teamwork, and are more difficult than other areas of the game. It's how they were designed, it's not a permanent exclusion area.

When Protective Bond 55 Monks began soloing the Underworld, Protective Bond was nerfed so that any time damage was reduced the player maintaining it lost energy. When 55/SS teams began to farm UW with almost the same ease, Dying Nightmares were introduced with deep enchantment removal. What happened when Perma-SF Assassins began to speedclear UW? Yes, SF was hit slightly with the nerf-bat, but it was allowed to continue being permanently maintainable. However, Mindblades were made ranged instead of melee. That did more to hurt OTHER professions trying to go into UW than it did the Perma-SF 'Sins.

3) Rare items used to be rare, now they have significantly reduced value, and the Glob of Ectoplasm (which @ the time I began to hit FoW/UW was ~9.5k/ea), a rare crafting material with no higher than a 4% chance to drop from any given Monster, lost its value (WTB Ecto 4k/ea - every few Trade messages, in pretty much any decently populated area).

The argument that SF doesn't change or effect how other people enjoy Guild Wars ends HERE. I don't Powertrade or go after rare items, but Perma-SF farmers have made a significant negative impact on this portion of the game. If items and Ecto are worth less, what happens to the players who spent tons of their time playing in Guild or Alliance groups to try and obtain these things that were, by merit of their location in the game, difficult to get? Anyone can obtain rare items, I'm not against that at all. But being able to roll an Assassin to use SF to SC your way to items that are difficult to obtain and were made that way by the game developers? That's abusing game mechanic circumvention.

4) If you aren't running SC, you can't find a PUG.

Again, the argument that SF doesn't change or effect how other people enjoy Guild Wars gets a nice slap of reality HERE as well. When I started running UW and FoW in 2006, I could find groups that wanted to go, and it didn't take 40 minutes to group. Now, if I want to take my Warrior into UW, I'm pretty much shit out of luck unless I can get my friends together.

It took me and my brother 4 hours the first time we cleared FoW with just the 2 of us and Heroes. Why? Because we slaughtered each and every Monster on the map before we touched a single quest (except for Rastigan's first quest, since he moves up to the Temple as soon as you get within range of it, whether you talk to him or not). Then we took our time with the quests so that we knew how to do them the next time through, in case any of our other friends wanted to clear FoW for their HoM or were wanting Shards, or trying to get Shadow weapons. We tried UW the same way a couple days later, but once we got to Plains, the Mindblades ended our roll. We're still working on a teambuild that will allow us to clear UW on our mains (he's got his Ele, I've got my Warrior), and will allow us to assist our friends should they ever want to do so on their characters. We don't limit it to gimmicks because not everyone can run gimmicks.

I've cleared UW on my Necromancer by running Orders for a Splinter/Barrage group, but I can't get a group to take me on my Warrior because it's not fast enough.

That's fine, be bull-headed. While everyone else is clearing their respective areas, I can take my Warrior and clear Wastes. I can't do the quest, but I can clear the Smites and, if need be, a good portion of the Coldfires in under 20 minutes. At that point, any of the 'Sins could come grab the quest and kill the Terrorwebs, and I'd be more than happy to Sprint my ass out of Wastes before they started killing the Dryders so that I wouldn't loot-steal any Ecto that might drop due to their work.

But no one will accept my offer, not even if I offer to provide the Cons, BU's to the entire party, and pay for the way in/pop my UW Scroll.

Anyone who argues that Perma-Shadow Form isn't game-breaking either:

1) Doesn't understand the game mechanics and the circumvention of game mechanics that permanently-maintainable SF is and represents

2) Isn't capable of being educated about what is and isn't game-breaking

3) Has ulterior motives for continuing to abuse Perma-SF, most likely a "get rich quick and f*** anyone who says otherwise or gets in my way" point of view

Shadow Form isn't the only skill that presents problems like this. Ursan got rolled by the nerf-bat for similar reasons. PvE skills in general are all over-powered, which is why we have a limit of 3 per player bar and none on Hero bars. Shadow Form is the main skill that causes this type of damage in GW at the current moment (and has been for a while now), which is why there are people who speak out against it being permanently maintainable.

/signed from first to last word! and the question is: why Anet didn't nerf SF yet? worried about QQing permaformers that can ragequit the game ? what's the matter? they already paied the game!

upier · Aug 09, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Nothing stopping you from H/H'ing it, of course - but that's not what I was driving at. It's just wrong to say you can be unaffected by Shadow Form existing, because it is. Where are you going to get other players happy to do Thommis the normal way instead of simply clearing it via VSF, I don't know.

You shouldn't be asking yourself if you can't get a non-SF group.
What you need to be asking yourself is if an area is possible without SF. If it's not - THEN players "playing" PvE can NOT ignore it. And in that case it does affect your gameplay.
What you are currently arguing though is that you can't "play" an area because every other player there is a farmer and they "farm" the area. While that is true, that's a simple observation on the state of the current PvE and not SF's fault.

Just think of it this way: you kill off SF and the people doing Thomy still won't take you in UNLESS you'll have a very specific build and class.
IF they'll still be farming that!

I am just going to quote the reasons, leaving out the explanation due to space constrictions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

1) Shadow Form is not total invulnerability, that still doesn't mean that it should be permanently maintainable, thereby completely nullifying 2 of GW's base game mechanics - Attacking and Targeted Spellcasting.

The problem here is that none of the elites you listed has a PvE version.
Second of all, this skill is DESIGNED to be farmed with.
And third, if you read the Dev's notes on the change (post 114), you'll see that SF PvE isn't supposed to be balanced. It's supposed to be "fun".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

2) The ability to be used to clear Elite areas faster than any other viable build.

Once again, if you look at at the SF Dev Update notes - you'll see that this IS something they are concerned with and keeping an eye out for.
So while this is completely valid, the problem is that the players do not get a say in what is too fast. That's completely in the hands on A.Net.
Still, this is the the reason players wanting a SF nerf should focus on. Because we KNOW this is something A.Net is concerned about - so best to put your money here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

3) Rare items used to be rare, now they have significantly reduced value, and the Glob of Ectoplasm (which @ the time I began to hit FoW/UW was ~9.5k/ea), a rare crafting material with no higher than a 4% chance to drop from any given Monster, lost its value (WTB Ecto 4k/ea - every few Trade messages, in pretty much any decently populated area).

This means that players are able to obtain things more easily. And considering how we KNOW that the game isn't getting anything new, but we are rather stuck with what we have - I wouldn't say that's a bad thing.
The game just doesn't have enough content to keep players interested it for the next ... 2 or 3 years that it takes to obtain items by normal playing.
This gives player attainable goals.
And the amount of cash it brings in also helps counter some of the crappy design choices A.Net made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

4) If you aren't running SC, you can't find a PUG.

These PuGs are "farming" and not "playing" PvE.
And "farming" has ALWAYS been notorious for shunning certain options. This isn't a SF issue. It's being able to evaluate the risks and then choosing the option that posses the smallest risk. And when the plan is to complete the area without having to worry much that it works AND being able to do it fast - you'll take builds that are PROVEN to do that.
Personally, when it comes to farming - I hope we'll one day achieve a team build consisting of 8 players of the same class AND the EXACT same skillbar. That makes partying as easy as it can get. No need to sit around and wait for that special guy with that special build that EVERYONE wants - you just select 8 random guys, and it works because they are ALL just what you need.

So no, I am not convinced that SF needs to be trashed. Personally, the speed of clears does not bother me enough to give up the ability of countering some of the crap they added in the form of titles.
(And I don't even use it.

)

ele pl · Aug 09, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

OMFG, 8 pages... Srsly people, do you even have a life? Reading this whole thread was pain to my eyes...

On topic: I'm against nerfing Shadow Form. Yes, i use it to farm uw and so on, i made a sin to do it. In my opinion it is even fun. But please don't say that with shadow form made UW able to complete <20 mins. Have you ever been on uwsc pug? Most pugs fails, because to complete UW fast with shadow form you have to:
1. know your way very well
2. Know mechanics of the game (what can kill you, how to avoid dangerous mobs)
3. grind some pve ranks

Most people in pugs fail, every time you have about 50 % chance that at least one person will die in first 10 mins, and your run will take over 30 mins than <20. <20 runs are usually guild/aliance runs who have all 3 things listed. Of course, its not that big difference, since its still too fast, but Shadow Form isnt a problem. Its just bad design. Instead of nerfing SF to the ground, why not just encourage other way to complete UW with a balanced build? Some kind of additional reward would be enough to shut down all the qq's? Look at FoW. Shortly after Roj nerf/fix to complete fow you had 3 different teams: Rojway, FoCnecroway and manlyway (100 blades). Now the first one is dead, because it was the longest, but you get my point. I suggest something similar for UW - make balanced builds able to complete UW in longer time, but with greater reward.

Of course, now my post will be quoted many times and many people will argue with me, but let me say: I can deal with Shadow Form nerf. If it gets killed, i can deal with it, i can do something different in guild wars. But many players will just quit, and toa will become another dead city like doa. Dont expect to all players run balanced builds there. They will just move to something different or quit the game. Is that you rly want, qqers?

Life Bringing · Aug 09, 2009, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ele pl

But many players will just quit, and toa will become another dead city like doa. Dont expect to all players run balanced builds there. They will just move to something different or quit the game. Is that you rly want, qqers?

Slightly off topic, but you should go to DoA german districts on euro times. Still fairly busy.

ele pl · Aug 09, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Slightly off topic, but you should go to DoA german districts on euro times. Still fairly busy.

Everytime i was in Doa German Pug, it wasnt able to complete any area, and mostly those pugs died on one of the first groups. I really dont consider them as a good way to complete Doa. Maybe bad luck? But who cares, your and mine posts will be soon deleted

MMSDome · Aug 09, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

The exclusivity/e-peen/fake economy argument again.

Considering the odds of the "good" weapons coming from the chest are akin to those of winning the lottery, if UWSC does it in half the time, that's like buying two lottery tickets. Your chances go from 5e-10 to 1e-9[*]. Woo hoo!

[*] Numbers probably inaccurate, used for illustration.

How is this an epeen arguement? What are you even talking about? I don't even pve anymore, lol. I am giving you my outside perspective. Any person with elementary knowledge knows that the more people opening the chest the more items that will be produces. Lets say that you have a 1% chance to get an extremely rare item from the chest and that in a given day 100 people open that chest. There will be 1 of those items produces every day. Now we have SF rolling around making it much easier and faster to get this item so the chest is now open 1000 times a day. Now 10 of these items will be produced a day making the value of the price go down.

I hope your brain didn't explode with my elitist e-peen argument.

Revelations · Aug 09, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Shadow Form needs to die in a fire. Anyone who gets fun out of maintaining it has some serious enjoyment issues and needs to get out a little more.

I would be more inclined to believe that the enjoyment of it stems from the accumulation of worthless virtual wealth, and for that I pity the supporters of such a blatantly broken skill. It would bring me amusement to read the pages of drama that would doubtlessly be generated by nerfing this skill, so for this reason alone I fully support the killing of SF.

Warrior Babes · Aug 09, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

so, can some1 tell me again how SF does affect your ''Gameplay''?
those with SF are farmers, so if u wanna go fow ''balanced'', those ''farmers'' wont join u, even if SF gets nerfed..
and u know.. 'sc' can be fun..

about the economy (dont know why u guys even care, lol)
so.. u guys are angry because some ''newbie'' has Obsi armor / High- end weps? why should u care? jelous? srsly, if u want it and u dont like to use SF (because its OP.. oh noes).. go Powertrade?
srsly, u guys think that farming UW(to name an area >>) gives like lotsa cash.. maybe if u do it 24/7with only guild parties who never fail (or whatever).. but u know.. most ppl here that says that it has to get nerfed never even used SF. (or dont even play anymore <-lol)

when they made SF so u could keep it up, i was like wtf.. srsly.. as outsider looking at uwsc i thought.. how ''unfair''..
u should try it, 1/10 'pug'groups make it in 1conset, and 7/10 wont even make it.. lets say all uwsc takes 20mins but u only finish 3/10 times.. u did get the endchest 3times in 200mins (more even)?

also alot of ppl think.. 5ectos/run? srsly most of the time u can be lucky when u get 3 (if endchest gives double ecto)

also running dungeons with SF came up in mind, dont tell me u NEVER took such a run.. but.. the runners earn moneh.. they do something for it, yes?

on another note.. ppl saying they cant join a pugteam without SF, uhm make 1, srsly?

but like i said in previous post... nerf SF, go ahead, nothing will change, and then we can laugh at those ppl that thought that it would change whole pve ''play''

Ugh · Aug 09, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

so, can some1 tell me again how SF does affect your ''Gameplay''?
those with SF are farmers, so if u wanna go fow ''balanced'', those ''farmers'' wont join u, even if SF gets nerfed..
and u know.. 'sc' can be fun..

Please go back and read the thread. This topic (and pretty much all of your other points) been discussed several times. Here's a quick summary. If you want an in-depth explaination, look through the several SF threads:
SF SCs are so fast that no one will do anything else. Unless one gets a guild/alli who enjoys going balancedway through UW, he or she is SOL.

Quote:

about the economy (dont know why u guys even care, lol)
so.. u guys are angry because some ''newbie'' has Obsi armor / High- end weps? why should u care? jelous? srsly, if u want it and u dont like to use SF (because its OP.. oh noes).. go Powertrade?

People who are poor players should not have all the elite armor/weapons. I'm not being elitist and I know it's all just for e-peen. But, high-end stuff is meant to be difficult to obtain. A poor player shouldn't be able to 1 > 2 > 3 his way to items that others had actually worked for.

Quote:

also alot of ppl think.. 5ectos/run? srsly most of the time u can be lucky when u get 3 (if endchest gives double ecto)

12k+ in ~30min is a lot considering you're not doing much for it.

Quote:

also running dungeons with SF came up in mind, dont tell me u NEVER took such a run.. but.. the runners earn moneh.. they do something for it, yes?

I've never taken such a run. And yes, technically the runners are doing something for the money. Depending on the dungeon, the run can be very simple. For the ones that are even a bit difficult, they're getting shittons of money.

Quote:

on another note.. ppl saying they cant join a pugteam without SF, uhm make 1, srsly?

K, I'll go by myself.

Quote:

but like i said in previous post... nerf SF, go ahead, nothing will change, and then we can laugh at those ppl that thought that it would change whole pve ''play''

How would it not change anything? No SF makes it hard to perma.

Either way, I've changed my views from wanting an SF nerf (due to the fact that Linsey said she didn't want to nerf SF) to wanting an UWSC nerf. Changing gate mechanics, NPC behavior, or the addition of skills such as Leech Signet and Well of the Profane might do nicely.

A11Eur0 · Aug 09, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

I hate to burst your bubble but enchant removal spells fail against it due to its invincibility.

10-15% aye? Where did you find these numbers? Chances are your estimate is wrong because in most of the game you can aggro a lot of enemies, you are just wrong.

Regarding the "ignore it" argument that is kind of hard seeing as this skill makes it easier to obtain weapons which would normally be difficult to get from end game chests. This goes for rare materials such as those that drop in elite missions. It is hard to just "ignore" something when it is hurting the prices of weapons that should be more expensive and harder to obtain.

Yeah because enchant removal is only available from targeted spells.

You're the accusers of the invincibility of SF: name me the areas that have absolutely zero counters to SF either in the form of PBAoE, signets, non-targeted enchantment removal(and no, I don't mean chilblains).

Which weapons are easier to obtain using SF than other means? Eternal Blade, Obsidian Edge? All the other rare weapons can't be obtained by simply using a perma-SF assassin. Voltaic spears are old hat, but if you count them there's like....four?

This entire thread can be summarized by the above post: people don't want SF to be nerfed, they want UWSC to be nerfed. I'll go a little further into the above post as well: poor players aren't going to immediately get these high end items. It takes a tremendous amount of luck to get one of the higher end items from the UW/FoW end chests. I myself have never had an Eternal Blade or Obsidian Edge to drop, in any req. You guys really need to learn how to put things into perspective. I've seen comments like "everyone has 500 ectos", "everyone has one of these weapons", etc. That's simply an overexaggeration, if not a blatant lie. I never had 500 ectos, and before the SF tweak I UWSC'd daily, sometimes all day. I only have one full obsidian armor set, and some pieces for my mesmer, and one set of chaos gloves for that mesmer. The first set was funded simply by 600/smite or 55/SS farming UW. I didn't get stacks of ecto by doing the run...nobody does unless they go 18 hour days constant, or get a lucky drop and sell it. There aren't 02707234709723048 obsidian edges and eternal blades running around...regardless of what you might believe.

Assylia · Aug 09, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Nerfing Shadow Form will totally ruin the fun... Think about how many who will quit. D:

A11Eur0 · Aug 09, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assylia

Nerfing Shadow Form will totally ruin the fun... Think about how many who will quit. D:

These people don't care about other people having fun, just themselves.

AtomicMew · Aug 09, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I can prove that this is the case for the majority of SF users. Watch.

Hey, SF sins!

^1st fail. People are not SF sins. People have more than one character.

Quote:

If SF is really not overpowered and hideously broken and it's okay for people to have skills like this, then you wouldn't mind supporting the implementation of the skills from this post, would you? After all, if it's really ok for you sins to have this, then it should be ok for everyone to have, right?

The best part is, some of those skills are actually less powerful than SF! Take the necro one, for example; enchantment stripping kills it. Not so of SF, since there are very very few PBAoE or touch enchantment stripping skills. The derv one can be interrupted. The paragon one can be shut down with Well of Silence. And then there's the fact that most of those skills don't prevent you from being blinded or weakened or otherwise hindered from killing things.

Yes! I would love to do UWSC on my necro, monk etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

These people don't care about other people having fun, just themselves.

As of yet, no one has bothered to even argue correctly that SF perma directly affects you. The only thing perma does is bring more people to actually play the game. There are more than enough farms already that net better income than UWSC. If simply more players playing is detrimental to your play-style, then you need to re-evaluate.

Warrior Babes · Aug 09, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Quote:
about the economy (dont know why u guys even care, lol)
so.. u guys are angry because some ''newbie'' has Obsi armor / High- end weps? why should u care? jelous? srsly, if u want it and u dont like to use SF (because its OP.. oh noes).. go Powertrade?

People who are poor players should not have all the elite armor/weapons. I'm not being elitist and I know it's all just for e-peen. But, high-end stuff is meant to be difficult to obtain. A poor player shouldn't be able to 1 > 2 > 3 his way to items that others had actually worked for.

u dont get stuff that fast, i play gw for.. about 40months now,
my guild is.. SC-orientated, and no, we dont do it for the ''farming'' aspect. it can be fun u know (you're not gone tell me you get rich from doing Deep).
and i can say.. i have obsi for 3characters.. but 2 of the 3 i had b4 i started with speedclears..
i can understand it does bother ppl that some1 else has FoW-armor. i do understand that it used to be 'elite', and hard to get..
but i dont care what armor some1 elses has.. i find armor combo > Full obsi
with obsi u used to look ''leet''
i just want my characters to look pretty..

Quote:

Quote:
on another note.. ppl saying they cant join a pugteam without SF, uhm make 1, srsly?

K, I'll go by myself.

you are kidding right? dont tell me u cant make any team.. try harder.. might take 40mins.. but u CAN form a *normal* team

Quote:

Quote:
but like i said in previous post... nerf SF, go ahead, nothing will change, and then we can laugh at those ppl that thought that it would change whole pve ''play''

How would it not change anything? No SF makes it hard to perma.

the thing is.. u dont Need SF to do speedclears.. ofcourse they will be faster then other options. but there are other options (doa with warrior tank still around 1h).. speedclears are done with Cons <-
and with ''nothing will change'' i ment.. for those ppl that wanna go.. ''balanced'' trought an area.. farmers are farmers.. and they are not gone go balanced.. u know that

_Nihilist_ · Aug 09, 2009, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This gives player attainable goals.

The goals were attainable before SF, they will be attainable after SF. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to obtain all the 1's and 0's they desire, but abusing game mechanics to do so shouldn't be allowed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

These PuGs are "farming" and not "playing" PvE.
And "farming" has ALWAYS been notorious for shunning certain options. This isn't a SF issue. It's being able to evaluate the risks and then choosing the option that posses the smallest risk. And when the plan is to complete the area without having to worry much that it works AND being able to do it fast - you'll take builds that are PROVEN to do that.
Personally, when it comes to farming - I hope we'll one day achieve a team build consisting of 8 players of the same class AND the EXACT same skillbar. That makes partying as easy as it can get. No need to sit around and wait for that special guy with that special build that EVERYONE wants - you just select 8 random guys, and it works because they are ALL just what you need.

You mean Discordway? As far as I can tell, Discordway is "farming" the Vanquisher Titles, and getting loot while doing it. You don't need to wait for this one, upier, it's already here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

about the economy (dont know why u guys even care, lol)
so.. u guys are angry because some ''newbie'' has Obsi armor / High- end weps? why should u care? jelous? srsly, if u want it and u dont like to use SF (because its OP.. oh noes).. go Powertrade?

This comment shows that you do not make the connection between how UWSC, which is composed of 7 SF Assassins, negatively affects the in-game economy. Power-trading is part of that end-game economy. You can't affect one and not affect the other. It doesn't work that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

These people don't care about other people having fun, just themselves.

Same thing can be said for SF'ers. They don't care about other people having fun, either. Bad argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior Babes

you are kidding right? dont tell me u cant make any team.. try harder.. might take 40mins.. but u CAN form a *normal* team

For a casual player, waiting 40 minutes to find a non-SF team to go into UW might not be a possibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Yes! I would love to do UWSC on my necro, monk etc.

You can. Vale Necro / Vale Monk.

Shadow Form needs a nerf. Period. If you are going to use SF, you should have to deal with the downsides of it. ALL of the downsides.

Change it so that every time SF would have ended, you drop all but the listed HP, even if you've recast SF. That seems to be a viable solution. With that condition, I'd even venture to say that the damage reduction from outgoing damage could probably be lifted or tweaked, possibly even the duration/recharge.

Does that seem fair? My Warrior can't use Flail without suffering -33% movement speed, which can only be removed by swapping to another stance. Nor can he use Frenzy without taking double damage, or use Flurry without reducing his damage output by 25%. Why should the Assassin be able to ignore one of the downsides of Shadow Form? They shouldn't. End of story.

AtomicMew · Aug 10, 2009, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

You can. Vale Necro / Vale Monk.

That's obviously not what I meant. I meant, being able to do the areas permas can do. This was in response to someone who attributed support for SF with being an assassin. Bad argument is bad....

Quote:

Shadow Form needs a nerf. Period.

Unperiod. Someone has yet to address the issue correctly that UWSC actually is not any more profitable than most other farms. There are other farms that get you similar profit, however, all of them are mindnumbingly boring.

There are basically no upsides to killing SF, and there are quite a bit of downsides. For one, it would close off UW and FOW to the large majority of players. It isn't easy to get a decent balanced team capable of completing UW HM. As it is now, anyone could easily make an assassin (or necro!) and get into UWSC in less than 10-20 hours flat.

Ecto prices and high-end weapons prices would also skyrocket, making them and elite armor completely unattainable for most players.

Lastly, let's face it, there's nothing left in this game except doing high-end areas over and over again. Without things ilke SF, it just wouldn't be possible to do these areas in reasonable time. Nerfing SF would cause a large number of players to just ragequit. This argument alone makes the entire discussion moot, because it makes it obvious A.net won't touch SF from their business perspective. After all, they do want their player base when GW2 comes around.

upier · Aug 10, 2009, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

The goals were attainable before SF, they will be attainable after SF. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to obtain all the 1's and 0's they desire, but abusing game mechanics to do so shouldn't be allowed.

10k sweet points?
2,5 mil lucky points?
500k unlucky points?
10k chests?
100k Zpoints?
That's the problem. Some of these goals are set so insanely high that one either needs a shitload of time or a shitload of money. Or both.
And considering we are dealing with a game on the brink of death - time seriously isn't on our side.
These are the things that need fixing, and once you have fixed this, you have removed the reason why people resort to such massive farming.
And then you might as well kill it.

But if one just removes farming from the game we have now, one removed the crutch that made certain moronic ideas bearable.

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Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

You mean Discordway? As far as I can tell, Discordway is "farming" the Vanquisher Titles, and getting loot while doing it. You don't need to wait for this one, upier, it's already here!

I consider VQing itself to be farming rather than playing PvE.

A11Eur0 · Aug 10, 2009, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

The goals were attainable before SF, they will be attainable after SF. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to obtain all the 1's and 0's they desire, but abusing game mechanics to do so shouldn't be allowed.

Abusing game mechanics? Is there a help line for these poor helpless game mechanics to call to get help and shelter?

There will always be a "fastest way" to do things, and people will gravitate towards that way...and "abuse it". Where do you draw the line...eliminate all skills and just auto-attack with a starter weapon through the game? How is it abuse? What's the difference between SF and 600/smite? If you nerf SF, you have to nerf 600/smite as well because it's just as "abused", and actually can/will net you more money for your time, allows fast access to more rare items, and works in quite a few more areas without being as fragile. Where are all the whiners about DTSC or MQSC? Dungeon runs? Nowhere...they're all too busy whining about a fragile mechanic that is only targeted simply because they feel it's ONE SKILL, not the three it actually requires at a minimum. 600/smite requires two skills to work at the very basic level. Sure it takes more to make it useful, but so does SF. The only damage skill a non-cons perma SF can use that's worth a damn is Sliver Armor. That kills one enemy at a time, is low damage per packet requiring 2 or 3 additional skills to boost to usable levels, and requires even another skill to allow the sin to continue working. It's very inefficient on its own. One other character doing damage isn't going to work either...so the two-man 600/smite team is MORE POWERFUL and MORE ABUSABLE than a single or two-man SF team.

Sorry for bringing logic into this discussion again.

Ugh · Aug 10, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by czfeng

Snow Bunny, ur face will be nerfed, not SF.

Snow Bunny hasn't even posted in the last 1-2 pages.

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we dont give a **** about u minorities

Racist!

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It isn't easy to get a decent balanced team capable of completing UW HM.

It's supposed to be that way. UW is an elite area and HM is Hard Mode. It wasn't meant for every average player to hop on in right off the boat from Cantha.

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Ecto prices and high-end weapons prices would also skyrocket, making them and elite armor completely unattainable for most players.

Call me elitist, but I feel high-end weapons/armor should be reserved for above average players.

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you are kidding right? dont tell me u cant make any team.. try harder.. might take 40mins.. but u CAN form a *normal* team

I've seen others try; they failed.

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Period.

Unperiod.

You can't unperiod a period! That's cheating!

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u dont Need SF to do speedclears

You do for UWSC. :/ If a new SC is made after the hypothetical nerfing of SF, it will be much less efficient and simple (probably). And, it hopefully won't revolve around a broken skill.

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speedclears are done with Cons

I think consets should be removed from the game, too. At the very least, Anet should refrain from implementing them in GW2. But this thread isn't about consets, so I won't start ranting.

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Yeah because enchant removal is only available from targeted spells.

The only core, non-spell, enchanment removal skill is Well of the Profane. It hardly poses a threat due to lack of corpses, 3 second cast, lack of targeting, and the ability for a human to use reason and move away from any nearby corpses.

I vote Signet of Humility is given to every mesmer in the UW.

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Where do you draw the line...eliminate all skills and just auto-attack with a starter weapon through the game?

Not all the skills. Just the broken ones.

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What's the difference between SF and 600/smite? If you nerf SF, you have to nerf 600/smite as well because it's just as "abused"

The main difference is that SF has a thread about it called "SF Argument." It just so happens that we're posting in aforementioned thread. Therefore, I feel obligated to talk about SF. While I agree 600 monks should be nerfed, this is not the correct place for such a discussion.

Quote:

The only damage skill a non-cons perma SF can use that's worth a damn is Sliver Armor. That kills one enemy at a time, is low damage per packet requiring 2 or 3 additional skills to boost to usable levels, and requires even another skill to allow the sin to continue working.

And with those few additional skills, a perma can dish out plenty of damage in a passive manner.

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Sorry for bringing logic into this discussion again.

No apologies necessary. Your post was just a shifting of the hate aimed at SF to another part of the game.